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If you want any resources for the Casino Royale book, please find the link to the resources in the sidebar on the right! Please check the schedule to find out what we're discussing this week!
Book Club is designed to be a place where you can go beyond the Bond movies and delve into another medium with our favourite secret agent. There is no set discussions, if you have anything interesting you want to discuss about your reading experience, comments on the text, or even how reading the book might have changed your view on the characters in the movies then do share!
Some Questions to get us started!
1) What do you think of the book overall? What bits would you want to improve?
2) Has the book changed your opinion on James Bond (the character)? Why is this?
3) Have you enjoyed the read along for this month? What has been your favourite bits so far?
These questions are just to get you started, as always please post your opinions, views and other discussion points about the book that you want to talk about! Happy discussing!
Note - we will be discussing the WHOLE book this week, so naturally there will be spoilers if you have not yet finished the book!
Please note - our next book is Live and Let Die, and will start on the 5th of September. Please check the schedules and resources post for more information about the book club times and where you can find copies of the book!
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no subject
Date: 2015-08-16 01:12 am (UTC)I really like Casino Royale, it's a really good introduction to the character and the world. I don't think I would change anything, tbh
2) Has the book changed your opinion on James Bond (the character)? Why is this?
This one is hard to answer because I read it for the first time so long ago, but I think it really solidified a lot of my headcanons as far as Bond's work ethic, attitudes etc
3) Have you enjoyed the read along for this month? What has been your favourite bits so far?
I get to yell about books at the internet and people actually are interested, it's great! And reading with the intent of discussing and taking notes has helped me notice things that I'd never really paid attention to before
Castillon
Date: 2015-08-17 12:07 am (UTC)2) Getting to see Bond's POV has helped me get more of a feel for his hard way of thinking, the tough decisions he has to make, and the risks involved with being a spy.
3) I've enjoyed the read-along a lot! I love hearing other people's ideas, here and on Tumblr, about Bond's character and how and why we enjoy him, and about Fleming's writing as well. Special kudos to isthisrubble for her detailed reading!
New questions:
4) What did you think about Bond's conversation with Mathis in which he says he wants to resign?
5) Not to be all English-teacher-y, but Fleming goes to a lot of trouble to establish the setting (the sulphur spring, the grand old casino made new, the gardens and storefronts immediately spruced up after the explosion, etc), which makes me wonder, what impact does Royale-les-Eaux have on the story that Fleming is telling?
6) OMG JUST TALK ABOUT VESPER. SERIOUSLY. SO MANY FEELINGS.
Re: Castillon
Date: 2015-08-17 12:12 am (UTC)SAVORING THE ECHO. Vesper has just been kidnapped and Bond still takes a moment to think, "Damn, my car sounds AWESOME." I can't tell if that makes me feel :D or D: tbh.
-Castillon
Castillon
Date: 2015-08-18 10:13 am (UTC)Re: Castillon
Date: 2015-08-18 11:33 am (UTC)Re: Castillon
Date: 2015-08-19 11:41 pm (UTC)"For a moment he looked out towards the quiet sea, then he cursed aloud, one harsh obscenity.
His eyes were wet and he dried them."
YOU AND ME BOTH, BOND.
-Castillon
Re: Castillon
Date: 2015-08-20 12:08 am (UTC)Re: Castillon
Date: 2015-08-29 08:01 am (UTC)james having feeling is just so important to me god. bby is having feelings and wrestling with concepts of good and evil and it's great but he overthinks everything and ultimately mathis was right so idek
veSPER NEEDS TO BE LEFT ALONE LIKE CAN WE NOT SHE'S TRYING HER BEST
no subject
Date: 2015-08-29 10:07 am (UTC)I wrote up my liveblog on tumblr and tbh I don't want to subject you all to a wall of text again so click here for crying and anger and reaction gifs (http://isthisrubble.tumblr.com/post/127235439848/casino-royale-part-two-the-gale-of-the-world)
Anyway! Questions for each chapter!... actually, no, questions for some of the chapters bc I couldn't think of one for all of them, whoops
14: what do you think Vesper is thinking during the nightclub scene? how is she feeling?
15: why do you think Bond resolved to wait until morning to tell Mathis, and to act as if he didn't know what was going on?
bonus question for Marvel fans: James Bond and Peggy Carter meet. What happens next?
16: because car crash: how is James Bond still alive? show your working
17: do you think Le Chiffre really believed what he was saying, both the cowboys and indians thing and and the 'oh I'll just disappear and have a long happy life' thing?
18: about SMERSH: do you think not ordering Bond's death was them underestimating him, or assuming that he would already be dead, or not even thinking about him?
20: just talk to me about James's existential crisis bc I love it so much wow
21, 22, 23 & 24: on a scale of one to ten how oblivious is James Bond and how exactly has he made it this far in his chosen profession but also: talk to me about Bond's feelings oh god
25: why does he just watch this happen, I don't understand??? *cries*
26: why do you think Vesper kept calling the MWD number?
27: there is no question there is only pain. actually, no: what do you think of Bond deciding "he would go after the threat behind the spies, the threat that made them spy"? what do you think it means for the rest of the series?
Castillon (14-16)
Date: 2015-08-30 01:16 am (UTC)14. I think Vesper is in a high state of anxiety in the nightclub. Bond has won, and she's waiting for Le Chiffre or her own Control or whoever to bring the axe down on her head, either in a way that will involve her betraying a man she's come to like, possibly to his death, or in a way that will give away her role as a spy and make her efforts on behalf of her boyfriend's life useless. It's probably a relief when she gets the note; it's probably a relief when she's tied up with her skirt around her head, as horrifying an experience as it is, because at least her hands are literally bound--she can't save or betray Bond anymore than she already has. Maybe that's why she's so still and quiet in the car.
15. OMG, I hated and loved that Bond resolved to do this. Talk about cold and calculating. I think part of it is that simple maths kind of thing, "stopping Le Chiffre is more important than saving one person." But part of it is definitely...like, an almost petulant ego? "I'm not going to let you ruin my victory by getting captured," is basically what he's thinking, I think. "Silly bitch." Lots of victim-blaming. And of course the great thing about victim-blaming is that the victim "deserves" what they get, even if that's probably rape/torture/death. But Bond knows that that kind of thinking wouldn't fly with Mathis, or with general society, so he's got to lie and say he didn't know anything about it. (And then, of course, when he's in the same position with Vesper, it's all "poor little beast" and pity.)
Bonus question: They meet in her jurisdiction, and Peggy establishes herself as the leader in terms that Bond can understand. Once that is taken care of, they have a good time bludgeoning bad guys together. I haven't seen the show, so I don't know what Peggy's sexual preferences are, but if she's down with one-night stands then it would be a shame if she didn't get to sit on Bond's face for a while.
16. No idea how he survives the car crash. He fell onto the floor before the car fall, and when the baddies are dragging him out of the car it says his legs are pinned between the steering wheel and the fabric convertible roof. It sounds like he managed to protect his head (or at least not send it spinning like a bowling ball through the windscreen), and maybe the fabric of the roof had enough give that it absorbed some of the shock of impact? IDEK.
Re: Castillon (17-18)
Date: 2015-08-30 01:17 am (UTC)18. SMERSH: 2 possibilities that I thought of. 1) Some kind of pity for Bond after he's been tortured. The man's just had his balls beaten, isn't that enough? 2) Some kind of sadism, wanting a foreign spy to have to live with the injuries Le Chiffre inflicted. But those aren't very satisfying. It honestly seems like the SMERSH guy can't be bothered? But then he goes to the trouble to carve that letter into Bond's hand when killing him would probably take the same amount of effort.
TBH I like to imagine SMERSH guy as being secretly anti-killing despite being good at it and feeling as though he needs to loyally put his skills to his country's use. He gave off the vibe of having loyalty to his leaders but also not exactly being passionate about his job? Like, "Oh, no, too bad they didn't ORDER ME to kill you..."
If you've seen RED, there's that whole storyline with the agent who's ordered to shoot her lover who works for the Russians, and shoots him without killing him. I would love to have some Soviet cat-and-cat between Bond and this SMERSH agent tbh. It'd be an interesting origin for an Alec-type character: "We met after I carved a letter into his hand. Three years later, he shot my boss, and then he shot me. Now we beat each other up when we're bored" kind of thing.
Or maybe SMERSH just really, really hates it when their operatives take the initiative on anything, and SMERSH guy is being passive-aggressive about it. "Well, I mean, I COULD have killed him, but you said I should only do what you tell me to do, so he's still alive and working against us. TOO BAD, RIGHT?"
I have a lot of unexpected feelings about this weird SMERSH guy.
Castillon (20-25, 27)
Date: 2015-08-30 03:33 am (UTC)More seriously: I think that Bond saw some of Le Chiffre in himself as a fellow player of "Red Indians," and perhaps even some of that SMERSH fellow in himself as a government assassin. I think he's begun to question the ethics of his profession, and his own actions as a killer, and begun to process the cost of it to himself as a person. Mathis talks about a conscience, but where was Bond's conscience when he made the decision to disavow any knowledge of Vesper's capture? Bond seems to be trying to reconcile his image of himself as a good person (or at least, on the "good" side) and as a 00 (a killer, a cold decision-maker), and resigning is his way of escaping that conflict.
If you're looking for a book rec, I can't help but be reminded of Dave Grossman's excellent book, "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society," which does exactly what it says on the tin and talks about the effects of killing on people's mental health.
Although probably I should also be thinking about the effects of torture on Bond's state of mind as well. You know what killed me? The fact that Bond and Le Chiffre both like coffee. I know it's stupid; tons of people like coffee. But the image of them drinking from the same cup, their nourishment springing from the same source...
21-24: Starting with a bit of a non-sequitur, one of the things that struck me in this book was the way Bond laid out his misgivings for M in the beginning, and M gave him the stink-eye, and Bond was like, "Oops, I tried to honestly communicate my feelings, how stupid of me." That scene, and Bond's feelings for Vesper, remind me a lot of this post: http://moosefeels.tumblr.com/post/113718248923/mirabailavellan-birddotcom-straight-men-repress It's about how men try to have feelings with people but are socialized not to, so then when they discover equalish-companionship-with-feelings with a woman they are like, "It's true love!" And in the aftermath of his torture and his existential crisis, Bond is desperately reaching out for some kind of connection. Mathis is a jerk who admittedly listens to his concerns but ultimately dismisses them and abandons him to go do French security stuff. Vesper, on the other hand, has strong emotions at him somewhat freely and offers her support in his recovery while also giving Bond a chance to feel stronger and active because he's able to influence her (relieve her guilt, etc). After a while, Bond feels like they connect in a way that he doesn't want to lose.
I think about the way Bond says "he was happy to be in her hands" and trusts Vesper to take care of him and find the perfect hotel to rest up at, and just. ;_; I don't think he could face the idea that his support throughout his recovery, the person who encouraged him to take a leap into a non-MI6 world and engage with an actual emotional connection, would betray him. Not only because he loves Vesper as much as he's capable of loving someone, but because she's a crucial foundation to the new life he's planning, the escape to that crisis of identity. Which brings us to 27.
27) The first escape of this crisis was accomplished with Vesper's help: he could resign and be a good husband to her, if not a completely good man. The second escape is after Vesper's death, when he commits to (maybe) being a bad man, but one who kills men who are even worse, and in the service of M, who broke security protocols to call personally for him, and his country, which he's loyal to. IDK if there would be a more effective method than Vesper's betrayal to turn Bond back onto the idea of being a 00 for his country and killing those who he thinks deserve it.
Castillon (26)
Date: 2015-08-30 03:39 am (UTC)But none of those one-in-a-thousand chances could happen if she couldn't get in contact with anyone. And she couldn't. No nines came up late in the game for Vesper, so she folded in the only way she could.
Re: Castillon (14-16)
Date: 2015-08-30 09:01 am (UTC)About Peggy: omg you need to watch Agent Carter, please. I was actually thinking along the lines of 'Peggy Carter is a female spy, something James Bond thinks is a waste of time' even though he must have known (and Fleming definitely knew) about female SOE agents and all the work they did during WWII (this really pisses me off!!!!!!! you insult female ww2 spies over my dead body), so how would he react to one who was not interested in impressing him, only with getting the job done
Re: Castillon (20-25, 27)
Date: 2015-08-30 09:09 am (UTC)do you think Bond trying to escape the conflict by resigning is a coward's way out?
21-24: oh my god I love all of this.
27: I really think your last point here is really important, because you can't have James Bond, 007, cold blooded killer, without Vesper, and without her death. oh god I've made myself sad again
Re: Castillon (17-18)
Date: 2015-08-30 10:05 am (UTC)18: I like the NO INITIATIVE EVER smersh idea
Re: Castillon (26)
Date: 2015-08-30 10:06 am (UTC)Re: Castillon (26)
Date: 2015-08-30 09:40 pm (UTC)Re: Castillon (14-16)
Date: 2015-08-30 10:11 pm (UTC)It reads like pride is a big part of that first rush of planning and decision-making. There might be some kind of instinctive desire to hide the fact that Le Chiffre got the best of him by getting to Vesper. Bond has just won, and now Le Chiffre has spoiled his victory, and, in the scenario in which he lies to Mathis, bested him in a shoot-out over Vesper. Bond wouldn't want to admit his failure (Vesper's failure--MI6's failure), particularly to Mathis and another organization, and so he plans to sweep it all under the rug.
I think Head of S said that assassination would just make Le Chiffre a martyr, and that probably goes for capture as well. This entire operation was about humiliating and defanging Le Chiffre in order to cause a blow of morale and finances to "Redland."
Agent Carter looks good! I am just so terrible at watching TV, though, haha. But I have so much respect for women spies in WWII--I'm just growling in frustration right now, in fact, because I read a wonderful little book about them but can't remember the title to recommend it to you, and it's not on Amazon; must have been a small printing or something. BUT YES. Bond with his "get back to your pots and pans" comment, omg, literally a "get back in the kitchen where you belong" attitude. Ugh. Vesper teaches him differently, a bit, about the competence of a woman spy, but I'd love for Agent Carter to give that chauvinistic attitude a nice wallop.
-Castillon
Re: Castillon (20-25, 27)
Date: 2015-08-31 01:02 am (UTC)What's curious for me is that Bond doesn't seem to doubt his own skills as an agent. He thinks about how foolish he was to start partying without thinking that Le Chiffre might act against him or Vesper, and acknowledges that Vesper did more and better spying through her work with Head of S than he has ever done while getting blown up in the field. However, the question of "Will I be proficient if I continue this work [either in a possible future, like when he's talking with Mathis, or against SMERSH at the end of the book[?" never seems to cross his mind. He's way more worried about his dick than he is about his spycraft. Why do you think that is?
-Castillon
Re: Castillon (14-16)
Date: 2015-08-31 06:39 am (UTC)Re: Castillon (20-25, 27)
Date: 2015-08-31 06:58 am (UTC)Re: Castillon (20-25, 27)
Date: 2015-08-31 08:47 am (UTC)-Castillon
Re: Castillon (20-25, 27)
Date: 2015-09-01 07:11 am (UTC)I like the idea of him doing translations or being a military adviser for a novelist maybe
Re: Castillon (20-25, 27)
Date: 2015-09-01 11:33 pm (UTC)-Castillon
Re: Castillon (20-25, 27)
Date: 2015-09-02 09:57 am (UTC)Re: Castillon (20-25, 27)
Date: 2015-09-03 11:37 am (UTC)But I mean. He feels a bit slighted when Vesper asserts her right to choose her own drink, of all the silly trifles to get defensive over; he's a character who likes control, and as a male he'd probably entitled to it when it came to his wife. And he might think of her that way--"his wife," an object that belongs to him. And he's also a character who's learned to use violence to solve his problems, and who's casually thought about spanking Vesper to get her to tell him what she's up to, so. Yeah. The possibility's there. :(
-Castillon
Re: Castillon (20-25, 27)
Date: 2015-09-03 11:42 am (UTC)